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	<title>Comments on: They say this is the civil rights issue of our generation: perhaps I should make up my mind</title>
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	<link>http://www.kateandneil.com/issues/they-say-this-is-the-civil-rights-issue-of-our-generation-perhaps-i-should-make-up-my-mind/</link>
	<description>Bent on Revelry and Mischief</description>
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		<title>By: Jen</title>
		<link>http://www.kateandneil.com/issues/they-say-this-is-the-civil-rights-issue-of-our-generation-perhaps-i-should-make-up-my-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-3522</link>
		<dc:creator>Jen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 20:56:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kateandneil.com/?p=1359#comment-3522</guid>
		<description>Thanks, I&#039;ll check your mom&#039;s site out. Law school will be after my kids are in school if I ever make it, so at least 7 to 10 years down the road. 

And I tried to think of examples from my comment last night, and I couldn&#039;t. So maybe I&#039;m wrong. It just seems like that might be the case, but who knows?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, I&#8217;ll check your mom&#8217;s site out. Law school will be after my kids are in school if I ever make it, so at least 7 to 10 years down the road. </p>
<p>And I tried to think of examples from my comment last night, and I couldn&#8217;t. So maybe I&#8217;m wrong. It just seems like that might be the case, but who knows?</p>
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		<title>By: Kate</title>
		<link>http://www.kateandneil.com/issues/they-say-this-is-the-civil-rights-issue-of-our-generation-perhaps-i-should-make-up-my-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-3520</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 16:24:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kateandneil.com/?p=1359#comment-3520</guid>
		<description>Jen. You should go to law school. It&#039;s awesome. You should also talk to my mom, because she is too. She is a prosecutor for Utah County. She also has a food blog you might like www.fabfrugalfood.com !!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jen. You should go to law school. It&#8217;s awesome. You should also talk to my mom, because she is too. She is a prosecutor for Utah County. She also has a food blog you might like <a href="http://www.fabfrugalfood.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.fabfrugalfood.com</a> !!!</p>
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		<title>By: Jen</title>
		<link>http://www.kateandneil.com/issues/they-say-this-is-the-civil-rights-issue-of-our-generation-perhaps-i-should-make-up-my-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-3515</link>
		<dc:creator>Jen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 05:56:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kateandneil.com/?p=1359#comment-3515</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m with Clayton on the semantics thing. I think that GLBT relationships should be afforded equal rights under the law, but because the relationships are inherently different from traditional marriages they may have unique challenges that will require a specific set of statutes. It would also make it easier for lawyers in GLBT specific cases to search case law for precedents, etc. 

I do think it is only a matter of time, but I could be wrong. At the moment, I think the trend is to accept almost anything if it gets harped on enough by people who care about it a lot for a long enough time. Not necessarily a bad thing in many instances. 

Unrelated: If I ever go to law school, I need to interview Momalicious, because she has apparently been in the field that I would want to practice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m with Clayton on the semantics thing. I think that GLBT relationships should be afforded equal rights under the law, but because the relationships are inherently different from traditional marriages they may have unique challenges that will require a specific set of statutes. It would also make it easier for lawyers in GLBT specific cases to search case law for precedents, etc. </p>
<p>I do think it is only a matter of time, but I could be wrong. At the moment, I think the trend is to accept almost anything if it gets harped on enough by people who care about it a lot for a long enough time. Not necessarily a bad thing in many instances. </p>
<p>Unrelated: If I ever go to law school, I need to interview Momalicious, because she has apparently been in the field that I would want to practice.</p>
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		<title>By: momalicious kelly</title>
		<link>http://www.kateandneil.com/issues/they-say-this-is-the-civil-rights-issue-of-our-generation-perhaps-i-should-make-up-my-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-3498</link>
		<dc:creator>momalicious kelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:05:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kateandneil.com/?p=1359#comment-3498</guid>
		<description>Just thinking out loud here  . . . maybe the solution is to have is to have two things - BOTH &quot;domestic partnerships&quot; AND &quot;marriages.&quot;

That way the state can protect its legitimate state interest in encouraging happy, stable, long-term husband-wife relationships and, at the same time, give protection and basic rights to partnerships in which one partner can be victimized regardless of their sexual orientation.

Why not both?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just thinking out loud here  . . . maybe the solution is to have is to have two things &#8211; BOTH &#8220;domestic partnerships&#8221; AND &#8220;marriages.&#8221;</p>
<p>That way the state can protect its legitimate state interest in encouraging happy, stable, long-term husband-wife relationships and, at the same time, give protection and basic rights to partnerships in which one partner can be victimized regardless of their sexual orientation.</p>
<p>Why not both?</p>
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		<title>By: Kate</title>
		<link>http://www.kateandneil.com/issues/they-say-this-is-the-civil-rights-issue-of-our-generation-perhaps-i-should-make-up-my-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-3497</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:20:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kateandneil.com/?p=1359#comment-3497</guid>
		<description>I think that last point gets the heart of what really irkes me about this debate. At times it really just boils down to an issue of semantics to me. 

Churches want the word marriage not to include gay people, and imply an implicit blessing by the state on homosexual relationships. 

Gay people want the word to include them, and by including them imply an implicit blessing by the state on their relationships as legitimate.

For example, on November 5th, 2008 Elder L. Whitney Clayton stated the LDS Church does not oppose “civil unions or domestic partnerships.” So, what are we &quot;protecting&quot;?? The WORD marriage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that last point gets the heart of what really irkes me about this debate. At times it really just boils down to an issue of semantics to me. </p>
<p>Churches want the word marriage not to include gay people, and imply an implicit blessing by the state on homosexual relationships. </p>
<p>Gay people want the word to include them, and by including them imply an implicit blessing by the state on their relationships as legitimate.</p>
<p>For example, on November 5th, 2008 Elder L. Whitney Clayton stated the LDS Church does not oppose “civil unions or domestic partnerships.” So, what are we &#8220;protecting&#8221;?? The WORD marriage.</p>
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		<title>By: momalicious kelly</title>
		<link>http://www.kateandneil.com/issues/they-say-this-is-the-civil-rights-issue-of-our-generation-perhaps-i-should-make-up-my-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-3496</link>
		<dc:creator>momalicious kelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 16:45:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kateandneil.com/?p=1359#comment-3496</guid>
		<description>And, what you are really talking about when you say words like &quot;partnership&quot; etc., is really just a matter of semantics. Why not just call it &quot;marriage?&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And, what you are really talking about when you say words like &#8220;partnership&#8221; etc., is really just a matter of semantics. Why not just call it &#8220;marriage?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: momalicious kelly</title>
		<link>http://www.kateandneil.com/issues/they-say-this-is-the-civil-rights-issue-of-our-generation-perhaps-i-should-make-up-my-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-3495</link>
		<dc:creator>momalicious kelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 16:40:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kateandneil.com/?p=1359#comment-3495</guid>
		<description>So true, but marriage has BECOME an institution that protects and insures the equality of the spouses. I know this from my own personal and professional experience, both with my mother who was divorced while I was young and from representing numerous women in divorce proceedings in the 1980s.

Thank goodness for the statutes and case law that has arisen from domestic relations laws! Our children and our society are better because of them!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So true, but marriage has BECOME an institution that protects and insures the equality of the spouses. I know this from my own personal and professional experience, both with my mother who was divorced while I was young and from representing numerous women in divorce proceedings in the 1980s.</p>
<p>Thank goodness for the statutes and case law that has arisen from domestic relations laws! Our children and our society are better because of them!!!</p>
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		<title>By: Kate</title>
		<link>http://www.kateandneil.com/issues/they-say-this-is-the-civil-rights-issue-of-our-generation-perhaps-i-should-make-up-my-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-3494</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 15:02:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kateandneil.com/?p=1359#comment-3494</guid>
		<description>The societal &quot;purpose&quot; for marriage certainly was not to protect both partners from the onset. During the early history of the United States, a man virtually owned his wife and children as he did his material possessions. As little as 100 years ago, and much later (since we&#039;re not even 100 years out from the passage of the 19th Amendment) married women did not have ANY property rights at all, even the right to keep anything in the event of a divorce etc (and once married, it was extremely difficult for a woman to obtain a divorce.) If a woman worked after marriage, her earnings belonged to her husband. Women did not even have custody rights &amp; if a woman left an abusive spouse-- he got to keep the kids. Women were quite literally at the mercy of men, and marriage actually entrenched that grip through legal mechanisms. When a woman got married her wealth was passed to her husband. The reason many suffragists chose not to marry was to keep what little freedom they had. Marriage meant the relinquishment of rights.

Additionally, the argument is that the churches should keep &quot;marriage&quot; separate and distinct &amp; that partnership/property/custody/tax etc. benefits should be conferred an any couple seeking them. Hence, the property interests of these abused women (that have been modified in modern history to protect women&#039;s contributions--- like in 1985 when the court ruled that a woman who had supported her husband through school had an interest in his resulting degree as an asset etc.) you mention would still be protected.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The societal &#8220;purpose&#8221; for marriage certainly was not to protect both partners from the onset. During the early history of the United States, a man virtually owned his wife and children as he did his material possessions. As little as 100 years ago, and much later (since we&#8217;re not even 100 years out from the passage of the 19th Amendment) married women did not have ANY property rights at all, even the right to keep anything in the event of a divorce etc (and once married, it was extremely difficult for a woman to obtain a divorce.) If a woman worked after marriage, her earnings belonged to her husband. Women did not even have custody rights &amp; if a woman left an abusive spouse&#8211; he got to keep the kids. Women were quite literally at the mercy of men, and marriage actually entrenched that grip through legal mechanisms. When a woman got married her wealth was passed to her husband. The reason many suffragists chose not to marry was to keep what little freedom they had. Marriage meant the relinquishment of rights.</p>
<p>Additionally, the argument is that the churches should keep &#8220;marriage&#8221; separate and distinct &amp; that partnership/property/custody/tax etc. benefits should be conferred an any couple seeking them. Hence, the property interests of these abused women (that have been modified in modern history to protect women&#8217;s contributions&#8212; like in 1985 when the court ruled that a woman who had supported her husband through school had an interest in his resulting degree as an asset etc.) you mention would still be protected.</p>
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		<title>By: Momalicious Kelly</title>
		<link>http://www.kateandneil.com/issues/they-say-this-is-the-civil-rights-issue-of-our-generation-perhaps-i-should-make-up-my-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-3493</link>
		<dc:creator>Momalicious Kelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 10:00:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kateandneil.com/?p=1359#comment-3493</guid>
		<description>The societal purpose of having state-sanctioned marriage was not for procreation (people seem to be able to do that without the benefit of marriage!), it was for the protection of both partners to a marriage. If things were left to churches to make things right, then there would be horrendous abuses, mostly to women who are the ones who 99 per cent of the time sacrifice for the family and stay home to birth/breastfeed/nurture small infants. 

Churches have no power to order people to do anything, the state does. It is wholely because of that state power that the recognition of both the husband and wife contributions in a marriage are equal - financially and otherwise. When I represented women who had put their husbands through school, stayed home and nurtured small children and made huge career sacrifices for the good of the family, it was absolutely life-saving for these women to have the power of the law to protect their rights and their children and to prevent abuses.

A &quot;churches-only&quot; marriage rule would set back womens&#039; rights hundreds of years - returning to a society where women and children are at the mercy of men. If you are married to a Saint like Jim Kelly, that&#039;s great. If you marry someone who turns out to be a narcissistic monster, that&#039;s not too great.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The societal purpose of having state-sanctioned marriage was not for procreation (people seem to be able to do that without the benefit of marriage!), it was for the protection of both partners to a marriage. If things were left to churches to make things right, then there would be horrendous abuses, mostly to women who are the ones who 99 per cent of the time sacrifice for the family and stay home to birth/breastfeed/nurture small infants. </p>
<p>Churches have no power to order people to do anything, the state does. It is wholely because of that state power that the recognition of both the husband and wife contributions in a marriage are equal &#8211; financially and otherwise. When I represented women who had put their husbands through school, stayed home and nurtured small children and made huge career sacrifices for the good of the family, it was absolutely life-saving for these women to have the power of the law to protect their rights and their children and to prevent abuses.</p>
<p>A &#8220;churches-only&#8221; marriage rule would set back womens&#8217; rights hundreds of years &#8211; returning to a society where women and children are at the mercy of men. If you are married to a Saint like Jim Kelly, that&#8217;s great. If you marry someone who turns out to be a narcissistic monster, that&#8217;s not too great.</p>
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		<title>By: Momalicious Kelly</title>
		<link>http://www.kateandneil.com/issues/they-say-this-is-the-civil-rights-issue-of-our-generation-perhaps-i-should-make-up-my-mind/comment-page-1/#comment-3492</link>
		<dc:creator>Momalicious Kelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 09:43:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kateandneil.com/?p=1359#comment-3492</guid>
		<description>And Anne, you are right, there simply is no data on how children survive in homosexual unions. There is a small smattering of anecdotal stuff out there, indicating both good and bad, but simply not enough to be conclusive. I for one do not think that children should be a social experiment to toy with.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And Anne, you are right, there simply is no data on how children survive in homosexual unions. There is a small smattering of anecdotal stuff out there, indicating both good and bad, but simply not enough to be conclusive. I for one do not think that children should be a social experiment to toy with.</p>
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